This week on Uncanny Valleythe team discusses surprising reports that the Trump administration appears to be reversing its stance on AI safety and regulation. We also take a look at what exactly is happening with the hantavirus outbreak and whether you should be worried. We also learn how a former federal employee who was ousted by Elon Musk’s so-called Department of Government Effectiveness is now running for office. Plus, a laid-off Spirit Airlines employee shares with us how he coped with the company’s shutdown last weekend and what he’ll miss most about his job.
Articles mentioned in this episode:
- A federal employee was fired for filming DOGE. Now she’s running for Congress
- What the Implosion of Spirit Airlines Means for Your Vacation
You can follow Brian Barrett on Bluesky at @brbarrettZoë Schiffer on Bluesky at @zoeschifferand Leah Feiger on Bluesky at @leahfeiger. Write to us at [emailprotected].
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Transcription
Note: This is an automated transcription and may contain errors.
Zoe Schiffer: Welcome to WIRED Uncanny Valley. My name is Zoë Schiffer, Director of Business and Industry.
Brian Barrett: My name is Brian Barrett, editor-in-chief.
Lea Feiger: And I’m Leah Feiger, Director of Policy and Science.
Zoe Schiffer: Today on the show we dive into recent reports that the Asset The administration is considering an executive order that would establish some sort of federal oversight over new AI models. And we’re going to discuss whether this decision actually signals a significant change in the future regulation of this technology.
Lea Feiger: In another surprising turn of events, we’ll also find out how a federal employee who was fired earlier this year for filming DOGE Agents entering his workplace is now running for a seat in the House.
Brian Barrett: We will also check in with a Spirit Airlines worker who was made redundant after the company closed. And finally, we will also explain how much you should worry hantavirus. Spoiler, probably not as worried as Leah.
Lea Feiger: I am very worried.
Brian Barrett: She is very worried.
Lea Feiger: Have a nice week, guys.
Zoe Schiffer: ALL RIGHT. So it’s been an interesting week for the AI industry. On Monday, we learned that the Trump administration announced what, on the surface, appears to be a pretty significant reversal in its approach to regulating AI. The New York Times initially reported that an executive order was being considered, just at this point, that would create a group of tech executives and government officials who would essentially review AI models before they are made public. At the time this was reported, it wasn’t entirely clear, at least to me, whether they would simply have access to the models and be able to look at them and evaluate them or whether they would be able to say whether or not a model could be released. But this seems to be a pretty significant reversal from the lack of very soft and sharp regulation that the Trump administration has had towards the AI industry thus far.
Brian Barrett: It’s really interesting how as AI models become more powerful, they kind of reach their limits. I think we’ve talked a lot about the anthropogenic confrontation. We’re in a new era of, “Oh, wait, actually, this might be helpful for us or terrible for us.” We actually need to put aside some of these free market principles and be forewarned. » Perhaps it will be a decree. I feel like in the past these have usually managed to become the thing. I have the impression that this administration is quite shifty. So I think that seems likely. I don’t know. Zoë, how are companies taking this?
Zoe Schiffer: It’s interesting because it’s happening in a group of these companies, Google, Microsoft, xAI, Anthropic, OpenAI have already stated that they will give the government early access to their models. And so I mean, I think it’s quite interesting, especially when you think back to J.D. Vance not long ago, he told a group of regulators in Europe that the administration was going to take a very different approach than the Biden administration in terms of regulating this technology and that they were really trying not to regulate it.
JD Vance, audio archives: The future of AI will not be won by complaining about security. It will be earned by building reliable power plants to manufacturing facilities capable of producing the chips of the future.
Zoe Schiffer: So even the possibility that this could change, I think, is worth paying a lot of attention to.
Lea Feiger: I was quite shocked by this news for a government so focused on deregulation at the moment. And the administration is very proud of it. This is part of the campaign advertising. This is part of internal conversations with their technology cohort. In fact, we make this place a comfortable place for you to do business and you should feel comfortable here. Again, we don’t know exactly how detailed this regulation or, quote, “oversight” will be, but I was surprised. I was surprised. I’m rarely surprised. I was surprised.
Zoe Schiffer: But that’s my question for you. Leah, when we talk about who will be on this oversight committee or even who will write this so-called regulation or executive order, David Sacks is no longer in the mix, at least in the official way that he was. From what I’ve read, it’s Michael Kratsios and Susie Wiles who now manage his old portfolio. I’m like, “Sorry, I don’t mean to be rude,” but I’m like, “You’re telling me Susie Wiles is the person who decides if Mythos is too dangerous to go public? Come on.”
Brian Barrett: Known AI expert, Susie Wiles.
Zoe Schiffer: No. No. No. No.
Lea Feiger: Here’s my bad take, it’s like, maybe I like this. Maybe I like the idea that Susie has to be on her little computer to say, “I don’t understand. This looks bad.” Is there something there?
Zoe Schiffer: Mm-mm.
Lea Feiger: ALL RIGHT.
Zoe Schiffer: No. I hear your point of view and I want yes and no. Yes and no, that’s what I do with it.
Lea Feiger: It’s half-baked and I’m not sure I’m fully committed to it. But yeah, it’s one thing to say we’re going to have oversight and then who the overseers are going to be, I guess.
Brian Barrett: Well, and I think a lot of people who are traditionally cooler-headed in the Trump administration sphere, who are AI experts, I think there was a real rift around the Pentagon Anthropic stuff where they said this administration had gone way too far. This is really hurting America’s AI industry and progress. So I think you won’t have those people in the mix. And if you don’t have those people, the ones that are left, I think you won’t have that. Regardless of who it is, I think you’re lacking people who know a lot about what’s going on and who actually have the long-term best interests of the industry and the humans that might be in it at heart.
Lea Feiger: I also wonder how much of a play it is to be able to say, “Look, we’re doing this.” Because the public is increasingly concerned, no matter how you approach the issue, about the jobs that AI threatens, energy prices, privacy, mental health, etc. This is a very important fact in the news at the moment. And if the Trump administration is able to say, even just a little bit, “OK, OK, OK, we hear you. Don’t worry. We’ve got Susie Wiles on the case.”
Zoe Schiffer: Oh my God. But let’s think back to what they said not too long ago in an executive order, correct me if I’m wrong, that they were going to wake up the AI. And we should come back to that. Did anything come of it? But what I heard at the time was not an attempt to reach out. It was an order that was issued, then total silence, no AI company was encouraged to do this.
Brian Barrett: I think that’s the right question too, because even though they haven’t done anything yet, I’m old enough to remember, because it was three years ago or whatever, when the Republican Party’s ire was focused on Facebook’s news feeds and algorithms and saying, “Well, if you don’t have the same amount of liberal and conservative ‘content,’ then it’s biased, which is not how everything works.” I wouldn’t be surprised if this panel, at least some of it, said, “No, you need to make sure that you’re training on Breitbart as much as you’re training on the New York Times or Wikipedia or whatever.” I mean, again, who knows? This is a report on an executive order that could happen, but I don’t know if it has disappeared. Even though nothing has happened yet, it still seems possible that this is still a wave of culture war we are heading towards.
Zoe Schiffer: Yeah. I sent a text Sam Altman about this. My message said we could talk off the record, but since he didn’t respond, I’ll tell you about it right away, which is to say, I said, “We should talk. Curious what you think.” This man was very responsive and talkative, but boy, is he either very media trained or a lot in court this week. So he doesn’t respond to his text messages, at least from me.
Lea Feiger: So, speaking of the US government, there’s another really interesting story happening right now that I’m watching so closely as someone who obviously played a big role in WIRED’s DOGE coverage. And we all wondered, “What happened to these federal employees after they were DOGE?” What happened to the people who spoke out? So we have someone that Makena Kelly, our senior political editor, spoke with last week, Alexis Goldsteina former employee of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, who was placed on leave after recording how Elon Musk’s so-called DOGE members gained access in fact apparently ient to the CFPB equipment very early in their purchase without informing the employees, without any kind of notice. So Goldstein filmed them. She literally walked up to them and filmed them. Here, she recalls exactly what happened in her own words in an interview with Democracy Now!
Alexis Goldstein, audio archives: I entered as I usually do. I drop my toddler off at daycare. There is no stroller parking, so I ride my stroller, my stroller empty, to the CFPB headquarters in Washington, DC. And I noticed a number of people that I had never seen before, who were not wearing the required CFPB badges and were accessing what appeared to be CFPB equipment. So I wanted to take a closer look. I wanted to try to investigate. We’re constantly told that we’re supposed to report suspicious activity, that we’re supposed to defend the sensitive data we hold on Americans.
Lea Feiger: I mean, it’s so surreal to hear someone talk about this as an experience, to see people come into your workplace and really turn everything upside down. And one of the things that Alexis also said is how much people trust them with this technology. These are very, very important elements that were created in one fell swoop. lair in the hands of people who were not actually government employees. She has a little more to say. Let’s listen.
Alexis Goldstein, audio archives: Millions of people tell us about their moments of vulnerability if they are scammed by their financial company, if they have problems with their mortgage. The technical term we use for this is Personally Identifiable Information and we have a lot of very specific training on how to handle it. And so I was very concerned that people I had never seen before were there and seemed to have CFPB material. So I tried to take a look. They went from one conference room to another, when they saw me, in a conference room that had no windows. And so I decided to go to this conference room.
Lea Feiger: Goldstein told Makena that she tried to approach these DOGE members. They refused to share their names with her. A security guard eventually escorted her out and later that day she found out she was being placed on administrative leave. Then earlier this year, a long time later, she was officially fired from the CFPB. The plot twist now is that Goldstein is running for office. She is a candidate in the race for the United States House of Representatives in Maryland’s 6th Congressional District. And a big part of his agenda is to really expose to the common voter what’s going on in the federal government and the machinations that are going on in the Trump administration. She had a lot of really interesting things to say, and frankly, her story about what it was like to really take on DOGE in a federal way and see that completely shut down and reversed was fascinating. It was a really interesting look for us.
Zoe Schiffer: I just think there’s a lot of irony in the fact that she’s working to reveal what’s really going on in the federal government when Elon Musk and the so-called Department of Government Effectiveness were supposed to be shedding light on what was really going on, uncovering the fraud, waste and abuse and showing the general public what it looked like.
Lea Feiger: Absolutely. I mean, a lot of the problem is that these people that she found also have been with many other agencies of the federal government. These were not isolated people. She was interacting with some of the big leagues.
Brian Barrett: Léa, how does her message resonate, as we know, with voters? It makes total sense that she would come out on this platform and say, “Hey, I’ve seen the worst of what happens when you’re a government employee and DOGE comes in and breaks the systems that we rely on,” especially the CFPB, which has been gutted and plays a very valuable role in this ecosystem. Are people buying it? Is she okay?”
Lea Feiger: Honestly, it’s hard to say because it’s a little early and it’s a very, very busy race. Maryland’s 6th Congressional District, crowded, there were a lot of people inside. From what we’ve seen online, federal officials love it. And many current and former federal workers live in this neighborhood. So she has a chance.
Brian Barrett: I found this fascinating, she is also not the only former official affected by DOGE who is now running for office. There are more than three dozen people who quit or lost their jobs as a result of these cuts and are now running for office, trying to change the system, and good luck to them, trying to change the system through Congress rather than through their federal purchase.
Lea Feiger: Yeah, absolutely. And listen, Goldstein, she’s running as a Democrat. She was very critical of how Democrats took a hands-off approach, saying, “We’ll get into it once we take back the House.” So I am very interested to see how this message will also be delivered in the medium term. She says, for example, that continuing the work of the CFPB is a priority. And it will take some time, however, which she acknowledges, to undo much of this damage, particularly when it comes to agencies like the CFPB that have been so monumentally gutted. I’m definitely going to follow this one closely. I can’t wait to see where she goes.
Brian Barrett: Before we take the break, I have one more first-hand account to share with listeners. This one comes from flight attendant Julian Richardson, one of more than 17,000 Spirit Airlines members who were affected by the company’s shutdown. This past weekend, Spirit announced that it was ceasing operations after 34 years, which shocked me that it had been around for so long, and after filing for bankruptcy twice in the last two years. That shocked me less. Yet amid all the rumors and uncertainty, workers like Julian were caught off guard.
Julian Richardson, audio archive: I woke up early in the morning to go to the gym, around 4 p.m. And like most people, I checked my phone and saw an email come in around 2 a.m. and it was from the company. So I looked into it and it was definitely not good news. And I was very, very surprised. I was like, “Man, I know it was in the back of our minds, but it’s actually real now.”
Brian Barrett: Workers like Julian knew well, in case you were wondering, that Spirit had a reputation for being economical, but not always the most reliable. But he also said that as an employee, he sees a different side of the situation.
Julian Richardson, audio archive: As a flight attendant, you see people boarding flights. You realize that many people in family depend on this particular brand because of its prices. If you have three or four children over the age of two, that means you have to buy plane tickets for everyone. And if plane tickets are cheaper, it helps to be able to travel somewhere. This is what I really noticed when I started working for the airline.
Brian Barrett: As I have two children, I feel it deeply. And also, at a time when aviation safety is on many people’s minds, Julian was also particularly proud of the safety record maintained by Spirit.
Julian Richardson, audio archive: I mean, over the past, they’ve been in business for 34 years now, they’ve never had a fatal accident or anything like that. And I think that’s huge, especially in an industry where you kind of have a job where your life is in danger every day, where most of these airlines have had at least one in their lifetime. I think it’s a big problem.
Brian Barrett: Julian and his former colleagues must now re-enter the uncertainty of the job market. But there’s at least one thing he’s not worried about, and what’s surprising is AI.
Julian Richardson, audio archive: There are things that happen on a plane where you need a real person. I remember during Covidit was the time when everyone had to wear a mask. Some people wanted to wear it, some people didn’t want to wear it. So almost every week there’s a viral video of fights or something happening where maybe a baby is crying and this person is upset because the baby is crying. And then they say something to the mother, then the mother responds something. It’s almost like any other flying scenario on airplanes. I don’t know how AI could improve this situation.
Zoe Schiffer: Yeah, we don’t need one Grok.
Brian Barrett: Grok would just say it’s sick.
Zoe Schiffer: Grok smooths over the fight between the mom and the person who’s yelling at her about her baby.
Lea Feiger: I really, really feel for these workers and I really, really feel for all of these customers who have been stranded. Spirit in a lot of ways, like something that we like to make fun of a little bit, like you take Spirit when you have to, but also it was actually available and it worked and it wasn’t as expensive as anyone else. It’s a little sad, especially when I look at the decline of the airline industry in the United States, when I look at Europe and I say, “You have so many low-cost airlines.” And especially with all the deals, all the back and forth between JetBlue and Spirit that were canceled, it was just a little sad to see that happen.
Brian Barrett: And Leah, when you say blocked, I want to be clear, it’s literal. I believe some of these employees were not in their hometowns when Spirit closed its doors. They therefore had to rely on other airlines which offered them an extra seat or a ticket to return home. Fortunately, this is apparently a very community-based industry. Other airlines helped them. Other airlines offer preferential job interviews to Spirit Airlines employees. But can you imagine, I’m in London right now what if WIRED closed down and I had to find another way home. I mean, that would be fine for me, but…
Lea Feiger: No, but that would also be just ridiculous. It’s wild. I think about that 30 Rock episode where Liz Lemon says, “Oh yeah, it’s my flight.” And they say, “Sorry, we don’t have any flights now.” We’re just making popcorn,” which was amazing to see, but it’s so real.
Brian Barrett: I think on a consumer level, if you were to book tickets for the summer, do it quickly because now it’s a question of supply and demand, right? An entire airline has disappeared. That’s a lot of places that aren’t there, so there’s still more s of rarity. Prices are basically going up at the worst possible time for people like me who are considering planning a summer trip with, again, two kids.
Zoe Schiffer: After the break, we will discuss the news of the hantavirus epidemic on a cruise ship. Should we be worried or are we panicking for no reason? We will know.
Lea Feiger: So, in recent days, the headlines of a hantavirus outbreak which takes place on the MV Hondius, a Dutch-flagged cruise ship. The cruise left the southern tip of Argentina more than a month ago, including a stopover in Antarctica, on the island of Saint Helena. The problems began when a man started showing symptoms such as fever, headache, which eventually developed into a respiratory illness. He died on board and a few weeks later his wife died as well. It was later confirmed that she also had the hantavirus. This week, seven cases were confirmed and the ship is currently carrying 147 passengers and crew. To help us understand what’s happening on Earth, we’re joined by WIRED editor Emily Mullin.
Emilie Mullin: Thank you for inviting me.
Brian Barrett: Emily, thanks for being here. Before we get into how worried we should be, because I want to keep Leah in suspense, when we hear about viruses and respiratory illnesses, obviously we’re a little panicked, conditioned to be, and rightfully so. But can you tell us a little more about what hantavirus actually is before we get into the nitty-gritty of whether it’s going to ruin the next few years of our lives?
Emilie Mullin: So it is a respiratory virus and it is quite rare. It is usually spread through rodent feces and urine.
Zoe Schiffer: Well, it’s disgusting and terrifying. But the couple on board the ship were the first to show symptoms, and then it appears the symptoms spread further. So I guess, Emily, do we know how this is spread and how it’s transmitted between people?
Emilie Mullin: RIGHT. So, on Wednesday, we know that three passengers died, this Dutch couple and a German national. The World Health Organization confirmed Wednesday that the deaths were caused by the Andean strain of hantavirus. And this is important because the Andean strain can spread through human-to-human transmission. This is not the usual way hantavirus spreads. So hantaviruses are actually a family of viruses and they are found all over the world. They are usually carried by rodents, as I said before. The virus is usually transmitted to humans when people breathe air and dust particles containing rodent feces or urine. And here in the United States, most cases of hantavirus over the years have been in the southwest, so New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona, and California. And the There are also some occasional cases in Washington state. In the case of the Dutch couple, one theory for how they were initially infected is that they were apparently birdwatching in the city of Ushuaia in Argentina before boarding the ship. I spoke with a hantavirus expert this morning who told me the virus has already been found in rodents. And he added that it was enough for the virus to be present in animals in a particular location for there to be a risk to humans.
Lea Feiger: So, are measures currently being taken to contain this epidemic? Has he already left the ship? I saw reports. I would like you to explain this to us a little more.
Emilie Mullin: The authorities of several countries are therefore currently coordinating this very complicated response. Passengers are monitored for symptoms and, of course, asked to self-isolate if they develop symptoms. And in the first few days of these symptoms, it really looks like any other respiratory virus. You may therefore have fever, muscle pain, fatigue, dizziness. But then the disease progresses to quite serious phenomena, including coughing, shortness of breath and difficulty breathing. So, on Wednesday, two hantavirus patients and one suspected of being infected were evacuated from the ship and are on their way to Europe for treatment. We also know that a man who returned home to Switzerland after a trip to South America and traveled on the same cruise ship, tested positive for the virus and is being treated in a hospital in Switzerland. The patient’s wife accompanied him on the trip. She has no symptoms at this time, but is self-isolating as a precaution. This is why Swiss health authorities are now working to find the people with whom this person may have come into contact.
Brian Barrett: This is the first time I think about it contact tracing for many years, and I was so happy not to think about it for so long, because it’s such a complicated process and something that really takes a lot of work. Emily, given all of this, what is the level of concern here, given what the World Health Organization and other organizations have said? Sounds cautious about it, but maybe it’s not time to panic yet, but I’ll defer to you because maybe it’s just me trying to feel better.
Emilie Mullin: No, I think you’re right. The hantavirus expert I spoke with said there have been outbreaks of the Andean strain before, but no large outbreaks. And these clusters tend to involve close, prolonged contact with people suffering from the disease. This is a virus that does not spread as efficiently as other respiratory viruses that we are used to, like Covid or the flu, for example. Hantavirus symptoms are also usually quite severe. So this is not, again, a virus like Covid, where many people are infected with the disease and spreading it asymptomatically without knowing it. So that’s at least a little comfort, even if the downside is that the illness is quite serious. The World Health Organization therefore says that the risk to the general public is currently low and this is unlikely to be another Covid situation.
Brian Barrett: Léa, how do we feel?
Lea Feiger: Not good, guys. I don’t know. Are you kidding? How do you feel? Maybe this is the time to say, “Are you with me yet?”
Brian Barrett: No, I was fine, but Emily probably hit it pretty hard in a way that made me suddenly feel a little more anxious.
Lea Feiger: Yeah, it was probably swallowing.
Emilie Mullin: It was me writing an editorial. The World Health Organization did not include the probable.
Brian Barrett: ALL RIGHT. What if they just had it in italics or in big quotes? Like it’s “probably” good.
Lea Feiger: I don’t know, guys. I think, first of all, I’m fascinated by the fact that there are different strains of this. And that brought me back early on to the armchair scientists at the start of Covid who were saying, “No, no, no, everything’s fine.” So for this to be officially announced, yes, this is the strain that can be transmitted between humans, I think that’s remarkable to say the least. I have to give myself that.
Brian Barrett: Oh, I think that’s true. And I think my open questions are: How long do these people have to stay on this ship before everyone says, “Okay, you can go now,” or do they send them back to shore and just have them isolate for a while? Contact tracing is concerning because once again I’m having flashbacks. But I think what you said, Emily, about how this is different from Covid in important ways in terms of how quickly it can spread, how easily it can spread, especially now that we have the mechanisms in place to do these contact tracing things, I’m going to stand my ground not too worried at the moment.
Zoe Schiffer: Until we start seeing random techies become expert epidemiologists overnight and post really long tweets about the likelihood of a pandemic, I think I’m not going to panic because it was…
Brian Barrett: Oh, how many people are asking Grok about the hantavirus right now?
Zoe Schiffer: Oh, actually, no, a good amount. I did a little research this morning. And Grok was very measured, I must say. This is the first time I’ve liked an answer from Grok. Grok isn’t worried.
Brian Barrett: That’s it. If Grok isn’t worried, I’m not.
Emilie Mullin: I think even if you’re considering taking a vacation on a cruise ship, if you’ve booked a cruise for this summer, I think there are probably other things to worry about like norovirus, even Covid, which we know spreads quite effectively on cruise ships. But I think hantavirus is pretty low on your risk list, unless you’re coming from a part of the world where hantavirus is known and recently observed in animals, as in this case.
Brian Barrett: Yeah, don’t go birding in Argentina—
Emilie Mullin: Exactly.
Brian Barrett: …and you’re in good shape. Emily, thank you so much for being with us. It was really very helpful.
Emilie Mullin: THANKS.
Zoe Schiffer: This is our show for today. We’ll link to all the stories we talked about in the show notes. Uncanny Valley is produced by Kaleidoscope Content. Adriana Tapia produced this episode. It was mixed by Amar Lal at Macro Sound. The facts were verified by Daniel Roman. Pran Bandi is our New York studio engineer. Marc Leyda is our studio engineer in San Francisco. Kimberly Chua is our Senior Digital Production Manager. Kate Osborn is our executive producer and Katie Drummond is WIRED’s global editorial director.